I read JJ's posting this evening on Unrepentant Old Hippie blog & clicked the link & came across Big Blue Wave's Blog. I'm only providing the link solely because some may not believe the quote on her posting I came across below.
I left a very angry comment to her posting, but since she uses the option to approve, oops! I mean censor her comments, more than likely it will never be posted, so I am posting my comment to my posting & unlike her, I would welcome comments. As a matter of fact, I dared her to comment on this posting.
Whoa! A certain quote troubled me greatly: I read it twice to make absolutely sure I didn't misunderstand you:
"The unborn child, of course, is a non-issue. His welfare is of no consequence. It can't be. It would get in the way of making people accountable for his existence and living up to their responsibilities."
I always knew the irony of Pro-lifers, that life seems to end at Birth; but that above quote goes too far. It seems you're saying that this child should be born into a terrible life knowing he or she is unwanted & suffering from neglect, resentment, physical & emotional abuse is better than the fetus never coming to be at all?? Oh, I so have alot of trouble with that one.
How can you say "The unborn child, of course, is a non-issue. His welfare is of no consequence...." ??
I'm all for adults taking responsability for their actions, but why put an innocent child through that kind of hell? This child didn't ask to be brought into the world; certainly not into a hellish environment. The child is not to blame for the sins of adults.
Are you saying that these unwanted, abused children are martyrs to your cause??
I work for a social service agency specializing in Child & Family Services: Believe me work where I work...hear the stories...all these children... to you: 'their welfare is a non-issue'?? Wonder if you would change your mind then??
That's right, Missy! Agencies & organizations like the one where I work pick up in caring for these children where you pro-lifers stop caring. These agencies & organizations way more caring than the likes of you & your ilk.
I know you probably won't publish this as you only publish comments from your cheer-leaders; that's ok: This will be posted to my blog for all to see how callous for human life you REALLY ARE!!! How do like that for irony?
Oh, & unlike you, I will allow your comments to be published to my blog; in fact, I dare you to...
Oh, & this wingnut is from Canada!! Are Canadians going to Hell in a Handbasket now??
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13 comments:
It seems you're saying that this child should be born into a terrible life knowing he or she is unwanted & suffering from neglect, resentment, physical & emotional abuse is better than the fetus never coming to be at all??
Exactly, because very often, people get past their abusive childhoods and make use of their experience to help others.
Abortion is the killing of a human being, equal to all others. We have a responsibility towards him just as much as any other human being.
You don't allow a human being to be killed just because you *predict* that he will be abused. If he is abused, it's the abuser's fault. The child-- born or unborn-- should not have to suffer because of the adult's problems.
So, Suzanne, when are you going to *do something* about all the problem adults out there--other than moralistically haranguing them with your usual pre-digested pap, that is? If all this sanctimonious preaching worked, there wouldn't be any abortions, and there wouldn't be any OTHER manifestations of human misery, either.
So, let's hear your CONCRETE solutions from now on.
If you have any, that is.
I agree with you on one thing. Children should not have to suffer because of the adult's problems. This is why I advocate for choice. We don't know what goes on in any particular woman's life that would make her decide to have an abortion & it isn't up to us to judge or to prevent her from solving a problem in any way she sees fit.
"Exactly, because very often, people get past their abusive childhoods and make use of their experience to help others." And alot of them continue that terrible cycle generation to generation because they never got the help they needed & don't know any better.
What do you mean "Don't allow a human being to be killed just because you 'predict' that he will be abused"?? I will damned well 'allow' any human being to make their own choice to have or not have an abortion for whatever reason they see fit.
Basically, what I'm questioning about your movement is the irony that life seems to stop after Birth. Instead of writing opinions & blogs; violently demonstrating in front of women's health clinics, intimidating people & hurting & killing Doctors who perform abortions & the staff who assist them: Why don't you do something constructive like help troubled children & their families. Because those people are very much alive & need & deserve help.
You are entitled to your opinion, but when you say things like your anti-choice ideals must take precedence over the welfare of a child, well, that's when the pro-life movement gets scary!!!
Bina, thanks, someone who makes sense!!
Thanks, I try.
BTW, my concrete solutions would include more mental health treatment, since we have a lot of people walking around who need it and aren't getting it; more detox centres, especially in run-down downtown neighborhoods; more community policing, to help prevent assault and child abuse; more women's shelters; more free daycare; better schools; comprehensive sex ed...the list goes on.
One thing that's not on it, though, is anything banning abortion or birth control. On the contrary, I'd make the latter easier to get, so that the former becomes less necessary. And the former should remain available on request--as early as possible, as late as necessary. Trust women!
I couldn't have said that any better, Bina.
Where I work, we do the best we can & we have good programs but I agree, more needs to be done to help the disenfranchised & children at risk.
I agree with you on one thing. Children should not have to suffer because of the adult's problems. This is why I advocate for choice.
A fetus is a child, and the fetus suffers for the problems of adults by losing his life. It's the same logic as child abuse.
We don't know what goes on in any particular woman's life that would make her decide to have an abortion & it isn't up to us to judge or to prevent her from solving a problem in any way she sees fit.
Well okay then, why don't we allow killing newborns? After all, if the parents are unfit and shouldn't be parents anyway, why not just let them kill the baby and there will never be a problem? It would be cruel to raise that child in that environment after all. So allow parents to kill their newborns, and then there will be no problem.
Of course I'm being facetious. The point I am making is that the unborn child has as much a right to life as a newborn.
You don't kill a child just because his parents are neglectful or incompetent.
Basically, what I'm questioning about your movement is the irony that life seems to stop after Birth
Let me put it to you this way.
Should we allow potentially abusive parents to kill their newborns?
After all, if the goal is to stop child abuse, and we can see it coming, why not allow newborns to be killed?
Of course that's crazy. Newborns have a right to life. I'm saying *it's just as crazy* to kill an unborn human being *for the same reason*.
We do not allow newborns to be killed, we shouldn't allow unborn children to be killed, either.
Why don't you do something constructive like help troubled children & their families. Because those people are very much alive & need & deserve help.
Unborn children need help too. See, you have this attitude that unborn children are not equal human beings. They are. That's why I write against abortion.
Influencing public opinion is constructive. Because it helps sway women not to kill their unborn children, and that saves lives.
Arguing with a loon like SUZANNE is pointless... once a person believes that a clump of cells have the ~same~ rights as an actual born human being they're beyond help (and sanity frankly).
It's like the great George Carlin says: "If you're pre-born you're fine. If you're pre-school you're fucked!"
That about sums up the F-ed up thinking people like SUZANNE live their lives by...
Joe Agnost.
It's like the great George Carlin says: "If you're pre-born you're fine. If you're pre-school you're fucked!"
Joe, I like that one. Also from one of the best comedians of all time & a very bright one. No one could explain the insanity of the Pro-lifer movement better.
Suzanne, I think you need to repeat high school biology; a fetus is a fetus. It cannot sustain life outside of the womb, ergo, not a human being. Like I said, don't take my word for it, but take high school biology class. Also, the law says so too...
"Influencing public opinion is constructive. Because it helps sway women not to kill their unborn children, and that saves lives."
Influencing how?? By killing Doctors who perform abortions of those who assist them? By scaring vulnerable, scared women to the point of perhaps ruining their lives forever?
Joe, you're right, arguing with her is pointless.
Good blog, CK. Don't let yourself get caterwauled into the anti-abortionists' twisted arguments. A woman has rights over her own body and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects those rights. We need to keep abortions safe and available for those who need them. Otherwise women die needlessly. And if our rights are not fought for, they can be lost.
No CK, *You* need to repeat high school biology.
The fetal is a *stage* of biological development. A human fetus is not a dog fetus. They are two different species. Therefore, born humans and fetuses are of the same species, they just aren't at the same stage of development.
We were all fetuses, biologically speaking, you, me, everyone. It was a different stage of our existence. Our inherent dignity is not a matter of whether we have cut the umbilical cord or not.
That the fetus cannot sustain life outside the womb does *not* mean it's not a human being. Whoever taught you high school biology should be fired. Even Henry Morgentaler thinks a fetus after 24 weeks qualifies as a "baby". So the "dependence" argument isn't even accepted by those who *do* abortions. Many abortionists openly admit to taking human life. Read a biology textbook. Many quite openly state that conception is the beginning of human life.
An organism of the species homo sapiens is a human being. We are all human beings. Fetuses live up to that definition.
The distinction between human beings who live in the womb and those who live outside is an artificial one. It is based on convenience not reality.
Equality is not something you have by virtue of the state or social recognition, it's something you have by virtue of your human dignity, and fetuses are part of the human family. They should be legally recognized and protected.
The law says that a fetus is not a *legal* person. The legal system don't make up the laws of biology. The law has often been wrong on who is or is not a human being. Women, Blacks, and Jews are examples of people who are human beings but in certain circumstances haven't been recognized as persons.
If you read the Supreme Court decisions relating to abortion, you would see that the Courts say that the State has an interest in protecting developing human life, and that it's perfectly okay to protect it. Common Law protected the fetus once upon a time, but never recognized it as a person, with full rights. The Supreme Court did not want to legislate on that matter. That's why it referred the matter to Parliament.
This is about human rights. If you talk about this issue without acknowledging that pro-lifers are trying to defend the unborn child as an equal human being, then you don't understand the debate.
The right to control your body is not a license to kill an equal human being inside of you. That's what it boils down to.
"The right to control your body is not a license to kill an equal human being inside of you."
Like I said - there is no point arguing with a loon... "equal human being" indeed...
joe agnost
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